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Poll: Does free will exist?

Yes 8 53.3%
No 3 20%
Probably 4 26.7%
Probably not No votes 0%
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TOPIC: Free Will

Free Will 7 months 2 days ago #113684

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Britannica defines free will as being "...the power or capacity to choose among alternatives or to act in certain situations independently of natural, social, or divine restraints."
“'Meaningless! Meaningless!' says the Teacher. 'Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless.'”
Ecclesiastes 1:2 NIV

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Free Will 7 months 2 days ago #113695

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It doesn't exist. Because God knows everything and He cannot be wrong. Our choices are already known to God. God cannot be wrong. And because He knows our choice we cannot make the other choice unless God would be wrong. I already debated this on discord with some people on Guide. They couldn't prove me wrong but in vain tried to prove me wrong.


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Free Will 7 months 2 days ago #113708

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In essence, everything about us has been decided for us: including our fate.
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Free Will 7 months 1 day ago #113768

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Well, this is complicated. I'm still figuring it out for myself. I do believe free will exists. But God knows everything, right? Yes, He does, absolutely. But He still gives us choices. He already knows what we'll choose, of course, but He doesn't choose those choices for us. That God already knows what we will choose doesn't mean He made our destiny to be that way...um...I hope that makes some sense...well, as I said, I'm still figuring this out for myself.
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Free Will 7 months 1 day ago #113781

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jodiaz wrote:
It doesn't exist. Because God knows everything and He cannot be wrong. Our choices are already known to God. God cannot be wrong. And because He knows our choice we cannot make the other choice unless God would be wrong. I already debated this on discord with some people on Guide. They couldn't prove me wrong but in vain tried to prove me wrong.
I agree. Since an omnipotent being is in control of our world, it would be somewhat contradictory to say free will exists.
But on our level, free will would exist in scenarios where there is no human with absolute control: e.g. an antisocialist society/community.
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Free Will 7 months 1 day ago #113782

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sci_geeek wrote:
Well, this is complicated. I'm still figuring it out for myself. I do believe free will exists. But God knows everything, right? Yes, He does, absolutely. But He still gives us choices. He already knows what we'll choose, of course, but He doesn't choose those choices for us. That God already knows what we will choose doesn't mean He made our destiny to be that way...um...I hope that makes some sense...well, as I said, I'm still figuring this out for myself.
It doesn't make sense. If God knows everything including the future and He cannot be wrong we cannot make any other decision.


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Free Will 7 months 1 day ago #113817

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jodiaz wrote:
sci_geeek wrote:
Well, this is complicated. I'm still figuring it out for myself. I do believe free will exists. But God knows everything, right? Yes, He does, absolutely. But He still gives us choices. He already knows what we'll choose, of course, but He doesn't choose those choices for us. That God already knows what we will choose doesn't mean He made our destiny to be that way...um...I hope that makes some sense...well, as I said, I'm still figuring this out for myself.
It doesn't make sense. If God knows everything including the future and He cannot be wrong we cannot make any other decision.
He's also all-powerful, so it's virtually impossible to escape that.
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Free Will 6 months 4 weeks ago #113965

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Khriz Kool Katz wrote:
jodiaz wrote:
sci_geeek wrote:
Well, this is complicated. I'm still figuring it out for myself. I do believe free will exists. But God knows everything, right? Yes, He does, absolutely. But He still gives us choices. He already knows what we'll choose, of course, but He doesn't choose those choices for us. That God already knows what we will choose doesn't mean He made our destiny to be that way...um...I hope that makes some sense...well, as I said, I'm still figuring this out for myself.
It doesn't make sense. If God knows everything including the future and He cannot be wrong we cannot make any other decision.
He's also all-powerful, so it's virtually impossible to escape that.
But God doesn't choose our choices for us...like, if we are tempted to to steal, for instance, and we fall for it, it's not like God chose that to happen to us, it's not like He decided we'd sin and that's that.
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Free Will 6 months 4 weeks ago #113976

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sci_geeek wrote:
Khriz Kool Katz wrote:
jodiaz wrote:
sci_geeek wrote:
Well, this is complicated. I'm still figuring it out for myself. I do believe free will exists. But God knows everything, right? Yes, He does, absolutely. But He still gives us choices. He already knows what we'll choose, of course, but He doesn't choose those choices for us. That God already knows what we will choose doesn't mean He made our destiny to be that way...um...I hope that makes some sense...well, as I said, I'm still figuring this out for myself.
It doesn't make sense. If God knows everything including the future and He cannot be wrong we cannot make any other decision.
He's also all-powerful, so it's virtually impossible to escape that.
But God doesn't choose our choices for us...like, if we are tempted to to steal, for instance, and we fall for it, it's not like God chose that to happen to us, it's not like He decided we'd sin and that's that.
That's probably why free will must be divided into two categories: universal and human.
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Free Will 6 months 4 weeks ago #114072

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My POV = God knows everything. However, that doesn’t impact what we actually choose to do, because we don’t know what He knows.
No one who trusts in God will ever be disappointed.
Trust God from the bottom of your heart; don’t try to figure out everything on your own. Proverbs 3:5 MSG

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Free Will 6 months 4 weeks ago #114084

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Khriz Kool Katz wrote:
sci_geeek wrote:
Khriz Kool Katz wrote:
jodiaz wrote:
sci_geeek wrote:
Well, this is complicated. I'm still figuring it out for myself. I do believe free will exists. But God knows everything, right? Yes, He does, absolutely. But He still gives us choices. He already knows what we'll choose, of course, but He doesn't choose those choices for us. That God already knows what we will choose doesn't mean He made our destiny to be that way...um...I hope that makes some sense...well, as I said, I'm still figuring this out for myself.
It doesn't make sense. If God knows everything including the future and He cannot be wrong we cannot make any other decision.
He's also all-powerful, so it's virtually impossible to escape that.
But God doesn't choose our choices for us...like, if we are tempted to to steal, for instance, and we fall for it, it's not like God chose that to happen to us, it's not like He decided we'd sin and that's that.
That's probably why free will must be divided into two categories: universal and human.
Instead of that, the two categories should be finite and infinite.
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Free Will 6 months 4 weeks ago #114086

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sci_geeek wrote:
Khriz Kool Katz wrote:
jodiaz wrote:
sci_geeek wrote:
Well, this is complicated. I'm still figuring it out for myself. I do believe free will exists. But God knows everything, right? Yes, He does, absolutely. But He still gives us choices. He already knows what we'll choose, of course, but He doesn't choose those choices for us. That God already knows what we will choose doesn't mean He made our destiny to be that way...um...I hope that makes some sense...well, as I said, I'm still figuring this out for myself.
It doesn't make sense. If God knows everything including the future and He cannot be wrong we cannot make any other decision.
He's also all-powerful, so it's virtually impossible to escape that.
But God doesn't choose our choices for us...like, if we are tempted to to steal, for instance, and we fall for it, it's not like God chose that to happen to us, it's not like He decided we'd sin and that's that.
But we can't make any other decision so He basically does make our choices. He is the Ruler of everything you know.


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Free Will 6 months 3 weeks ago #114120

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BookwormJo wrote:
My POV = God knows everything. However, that doesn’t impact what we actually choose to do, because we don’t know what He knows.
Exactly. That God has a plan for us doesn't mean we'll follow it.
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Free Will 6 months 3 weeks ago #114150

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BookwormJo wrote:
My POV = God knows everything. However, that doesn’t impact what we actually choose to do, because we don’t know what He knows.
Ah, but that contradicts something.
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Free Will 6 months 3 weeks ago #114162

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sci_geeek wrote:
BookwormJo wrote:
My POV = God knows everything. However, that doesn’t impact what we actually choose to do, because we don’t know what He knows.
Exactly. That God has a plan for us doesn't mean we'll follow it.
You misinterpreted what BookwormJo said. BookwormJo said that God knows everything but because we don't know what God knows that it doesn't impact what we choose. You basically said that God has a plan for us but it's our choice to follow it. BookwormJo forgot that because God knows everything and He can never be wrong it automatically traps us under 'we can not do anything else besides what God knows'.


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Free Will 6 months 3 weeks ago #114169

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jodiaz wrote:
sci_geeek wrote:
BookwormJo wrote:
My POV = God knows everything. However, that doesn’t impact what we actually choose to do, because we don’t know what He knows.
Exactly. That God has a plan for us doesn't mean we'll follow it.
You misinterpreted what BookwormJo said. BookwormJo said that God knows everything but because we don't know what God knows that it doesn't impact what we choose. You basically said that God has a plan for us but it's our choice to follow it. BookwormJo forgot that because God knows everything and He can never be wrong it automatically traps us under 'we can not do anything else besides what God knows'.
Exactly. Nice work.
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Free Will 6 months 3 weeks ago #114178

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*sci_geeek has left this discussion*
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Free Will 6 months 3 weeks ago #114339

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I believe in free will. I believe that between the influences of society, biology and providence, there is a tiny bit of room left for choice. The argument that God is in control of everything is very convincing; even comforting. The logic is sound, if you assume that God exists and is all powerful, which all of us here do. But I believe that God created us to worship him for who he is, not because he forces us to. I also believe that God gave his creations free will because Jesus died for us. If Jesus, who on Earth was fully human and fully God, resisted temptation and died on the cross because he had no choice and God compelled him to do so, his death would have been meaningless. The experience would have been incomplete if Jesus was not able to choose otherwise at any given moment in his life. It's my opinion that Jesus freely and willingly died for us. Does God know every move we will ever make? That's very likely. God has foreseen that Satan, also a creation of God and a free moral agent, will never repent and continue his evil ways until the end of days. But foreseeing isn't controlling. You can fully predict how a person will act without having to control that person. I can predict that you will argue against what I'm typing right now. That doesn't mean I forced you counterargue. According to the Roman philosopher Boethius, God's foresight and free will are not mutually exclusive. Of course, at the end of the day, none of this matters, and we're all entitled to our own opinions. Considering that our arguments hinge on the ultimately unprovable existence of God, and the unknowable, exact nature of God's existence, that's all we will ever have: opinions.
“'Meaningless! Meaningless!' says the Teacher. 'Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless.'”
Ecclesiastes 1:2 NIV

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Free Will 6 months 3 weeks ago #114345

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InsidiousCynic wrote:
I believe in free will. I believe that between the influences of society, biology and providence, there is a tiny bit of room left for choice. The argument that God is in control of everything is very convincing; even comforting. The logic is sound, if you assume that God exists and is all powerful, which all of us here do. But I believe that God created us to worship him for who he is, not because he forces us to. I also believe that God gave his creations free will because Jesus died for us. If Jesus, who on Earth was fully human and fully God, resisted temptation and died on the cross because he had no choice and God compelled him to do so, his death would have been meaningless. The experience would have been incomplete if Jesus was not able to choose otherwise at any given moment in his life. It's my opinion that Jesus freely and willingly died for us. Does God know every move we will ever make? That's very likely. God has foreseen that Satan, also a creation of God and a free moral agent, will never repent and continue his evil ways until the end of days. But foreseeing isn't controlling. You can fully predict how a person will act without having to control that person. I can predict that you will argue against what I'm typing right now. That doesn't mean I forced you counterargue. According to the Roman philosopher Boethius, God's foresight and free will are not mutually exclusive. Of course, at the end of the day, none of this matters, and we're all entitled to our own opinions. Considering that our arguments hinge on the ultimately unprovable existence of God, and the unknowable, exact nature of God's existence, that's all we will ever have: opinions.
That makes sense. However, you've all been focusing solely on God's omniscience. There is something else we all must consider: his omnipotence.
Also, like I said, on a infinite scale, free will doesn't exist. But on a finite scale free will will exist in most cases.
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Free Will 6 months 3 weeks ago #114368

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InsidiousCynic wrote:
I believe in free will. I believe that between the influences of society, biology and providence, there is a tiny bit of room left for choice. The argument that God is in control of everything is very convincing; even comforting. The logic is sound, if you assume that God exists and is all powerful, which all of us here do. But I believe that God created us to worship him for who he is, not because he forces us to. I also believe that God gave his creations free will because Jesus died for us. If Jesus, who on Earth was fully human and fully God, resisted temptation and died on the cross because he had no choice and God compelled him to do so, his death would have been meaningless. The experience would have been incomplete if Jesus was not able to choose otherwise at any given moment in his life. It's my opinion that Jesus freely and willingly died for us. Does God know every move we will ever make? That's very likely. God has foreseen that Satan, also a creation of God and a free moral agent, will never repent and continue his evil ways until the end of days. But foreseeing isn't controlling. You can fully predict how a person will act without having to control that person. I can predict that you will argue against what I'm typing right now. That doesn't mean I forced you counterargue. According to the Roman philosopher Boethius, God's foresight and free will are not mutually exclusive. Of course, at the end of the day, none of this matters, and we're all entitled to our own opinions. Considering that our arguments hinge on the ultimately unprovable existence of God, and the unknowable, exact nature of God's existence, that's all we will ever have: opinions.
My view exactly! I couldn't have said it better.
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Free Will 6 months 3 weeks ago #114387

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I can predict that you will argue against what I'm typing right now. That doesn't mean I forced you counterargue.
Haha!
I see it like this: you couldn't force Khriz to counter argue, but you influenced him, by posing your argument. If you hadn't posted, then he couldn't have counter argued.
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Free Will 6 months 3 weeks ago #114388

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On a different note, do you think Judas Iscariot had to betray Jesus?
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Free Will 6 months 3 weeks ago #114441

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BookwormJo wrote:
On a different note, do you think Judas Iscariot had to betray Jesus?
No. Jesus was so hated by the the religious leaders that they would do anything to get rid of him, even if Judas hadn't betrayed him.
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Free Will 6 months 3 weeks ago #114442

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BookwormJo wrote:
On a different note, do you think Judas Iscariot had to betray Jesus?
Yes, that was how it was to happen.
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Free Will 6 months 3 weeks ago #114454

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BookwormJo wrote:
I can predict that you will argue against what I'm typing right now. That doesn't mean I forced you counterargue.
Haha!
I see it like this: you couldn't force Khriz to counter argue, but you influenced him, by posing your argument. If you hadn't posted, then he couldn't have counter argued.
It was inevitable. Not many humans fully grasp the concept of inevitability.
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